Posted by: reformbama | January 30, 2011

“Nailed Down”

What a glorious time in the Lord’s house today. I have been hard pressed lately with depression, those that need to know what it’s about know what it’s about so don’t ask, and part of that depression got chiseled away today. I hope that little bit does not come back as the week starts. God is sovereign.
If any of you noticed I like to “push” the existence of the “Family Integrated Church” (FIC) movement out there to get noticed. Until today I have never saw that it was “absolutely” biblical, Just more biblical than the current norm. I got that bit of theology nailed down for me today.
Now I always agreed with all the Scripture that says teach your children and raise them in admonition of the Lord, believe me I have failed big time in following that. That is a blog for another day. I just never saw it as a mandate that it has to happen on Sunday. Since my first day in church I have grown up and accustomed to families being split in the church. Mom and dad go here, child goes there. Now churches are getting very “ministry specific”. Mom goes to her class, dad to his class and off goes the child to be taught by whoever. Church leadership says that’s OK so it must be OK. I get married have kids and go to church. Doing the same thing. Walk into the door of the church whose mission statement says it’s a “family happy church” or “we are here for the family” or anything similar, and instantly your family is separated.
Boy I got involved in church, F.A.I.T.H. evangelism, taught a kid Sunday school class, chaperoned youth to a cross pointe camp. Then as the church grew to accommodate the numbers of people we went to three services. You know what that means, more opportunity to serve and get busy. At the end there I was a life group leader and master teacher in the youth group, co-taught an adult bible study class with the Wolfe man and going through one of those specialized ministry classes for men called TOP GUN. Cool name ain’t it. Then I went through training to become a TOP GUN instructor. Can you guess how much time I spent with my family on Sunday. Very little. How much time away from them going to all these training classes and stuff. That’s OK I was busy serving the Lord! A-men hallelujah! Busy little sheep.
I started noticing something just was not right. Never had a parent come meet the guy teaching their kids. Not one parent sat through my rotation as master teacher. Mr. Wolfe started getting a handle on things quicker than I. He started bringing his kids into our adult bible study class. There is more to this story though. I brought mine in and others started doing the same. We were the odd balls of the church.
Fast forward a little here. I first hear of the FIC. Thought that was great thing. I started looking at from the wrong angle at first. Which is a valid point though. In an FIC church families stay together. They study together and worship together. The father is aware what spiritual food their children and wife is being fed. I started off looking at it from a practical standpoint.
1. Never a mad rush to find a last minute replacement in the nursery or children’s Sunday school class. Same goes for adults and youth.
2. Depending on how your church is set up, workers will not miss out on a service.
3. Service will not be interrupted by people looking for workers.
4. Don’t have to worry about nursery rotations and such.

Like I said “It seemed more practical than anything else” Yeah some Scripture pointed to it, hinted at it. It is more of a Biblical model than what is done in most churches. Until today.
The church I attended today is a Reformed Baptist FIC church. They restarted their series going through the book of Colossians.
I would like to take moment here to point out to a former minister of education that was not thrilled with our class teaching through the books of the Bible. His reasoning was that visitors would feel left out and would not be able to pick up where we were in our studies. He saw a study on it and believed it. Well guess what JG, I was able to pick up where they were and did not feel awkward or anything.
We read through col 3 as a book, but the meat of the lesson was in

Col 3:18 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord.


As any good expositor of Scripture, he ran us through the all the Scriptures that pertain to that. We went through a lot of Scripture, You could wear out a Bible real soon at that church. Then we came to the one after stringing all the Scripture together, because Scripture interprets Scripture, he took us to this little dandy of a verse. I have read it many times, but this time it struck a chord. That verse is:

1Co 14:35  And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

That verse nailed it down for me that FIC is definitely the Biblical model for the church. How do you get that from those two verses you may ask. It is easy, but for you to get it is going take a click of the mouse button. You will have to go listen to the sermon. It’s a long sermon now, so stick with it because I know many of you are used to 20 minute sermonettes.

Click Here:    A Proper Submission
There is going to be a part two to this. I am going to have clarify something’s and clean up this post some. Also I want to go over an observation I have made with my two visits to this church. Internet availability will decide when that happens.

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Responses

  1. You think women should not speak in church?? I did ask my husband things at home that needed to be asked but I did not refrain from speaking in church, so you’re saying I disobeyed God and therefore I’m going to go to Hell, right? I sinned, did I not? Are you going to a church or a cult? Sorry Mark just had to throw that out there!
    You know I love you and I am sure I am going to anger you with my post but I don’t think God is going to curse me because I attend a church where I go to my class and my children go to theirs, I am still very much HEAD ON involved in their lives, for the teaching starts at home, my husband taught me that. I listened. I asked him. He led our family, he was a godly man, loved the Bible and loved the Lord and without a doubt even though we attended our classes and our children went to theirs, He followed God’s commands for His life and he sits at His side today!
    I just want you to know I admire you and I love the things you bring to light but I also want you to know that while I don’t always agree with you and that you sometimes make me feel inferior to how I worship that we do agree on one thing, our love for the Lord and that’s what matters.
    Please don’t go deleting this blog post or taking a break from blogging or FB, I like you, am merely posting my thoughts. If everyone always agreed on everything in the world, it would get quite boring, wouldn’t it? Please keep bringing it on for my intent is not to quelch your passion but to merely post my thoughts.

    • I DID NOT SAY IT. LOOK AT THE SOURCE. THE BIBLE. 1 CORINTHIANS 14:35. HOLY SPIRIT TOLD PAUL TO WRITE IT. I GUESS PAUL WAS PROMOTING A CULT IN CORINTH.
      NEVER SAID ANYONE WOULD BE CURSED OR GO TO HELL. DON’T GO BY WHAT I SAY. WHAT DOES THE BIBLE SAY? GO LISTEN TO THE SERMON I POSTED. IS IT ME MAKING YOU FEEL INFERIOR OR IS IT THE WORD OR THE HOLY SPIRIT. PROVE ME WRONG WITH SCRIPTURE. NOT SAYING ANYONE IS NOT GODLY IF THEY DON’T GO TO AN FIC. THE BLOG WAS ABOUT MY EXPERIENCE AND HOW SOME AWESOME PREACHING NAILED DOWN A POINT OF THEOLOGY FOR ME.

  2. Great post! Oh boy….talk about bring back memories! I remember walking through this with ya’ll….I am glad you have put this up! I had a few chuckles though….Amazing that some pastors feel like others can’t “follow along” if they come midway into it (book study)…..so how do people follow the sermons then? Doesn’t make sense at all! Just an excuse. I look forward to follow up posts from you.

  3. Good post. It has been a long road of learning for us all brother. Scripture can be a hard thing to accept and sometimes it takes a lot of walking in shoes that hurt to really get to the right understanding of it. We must understand that God has ordained authority for our own good, so we must all learn how submit under his authority in order to truly glorify him. Christ himself submitted to the Father’s will. Lord willing, our learning road together has many miles left on it and I look forward to it. Praying for you and family.

  4. I know the Bible says it, I’ve read the scriptures. I read my bible every. single. day.
    I don’t need to listen to the sermon and I didn’t say Paul was leading a cult in Corinth either. I’m just saying that to me it sounds like if I am not at a church where it’s family integrated then I am not following God’s will. Tony was an orphan at an Amish home for 3 years, did he ever share with you how he was made to do things their way and how it almost caused him to take his own life at a very young age? You live your life your way in your kind of church and I will live mine my way.
    I don’t need to walk in your shoes or anyone else’s to get to the right understanding of it all. I know God has ordained authority for our own good and it is my intent to glorify Him in ALL things.
    I’m glad you found where you want to be and I hope your learning journey has more miles on it than imaginable. It’s not my intent to hold you back, quelch your hunger or change your beliefs. I just merely, like you was posting my thoughts.
    I saw your post on FB so I read it, you obviously had removed me from emails because I don’t get those anymore when you have made a post, so if I offended you I am sorry and yeah I’m pretty sure I did because you typed your response back to me in all caps so yeah that tells me all I need to know. I will remove myself from your blog and FB so that I will no longer be a thorn in your side. I never said I disagreed with you, I only said that sometimes I don’t understand your way of thinking, that doesn’t make me a bad person, just learning as I go.
    Praise God though that He’s still working on me. Hope you have a wonderful day.

    • Robin,
      I dropped you from the subscription list to keep this kind of thing from happening again. You did not offend me. It was all caps to try to make something clear, my mistake.

      You asked if the church I attended was a cult? You based it off of what Paul wrote. The implication of that would mean that Paul was creating a cult. No where in post post did I say or imply that the women at Dominion did not talk or not allowed to talk in church. That would go against Titus2:3.

      I can see why you could have misunderstood something. That is why this is in the post

      That verse nailed it down for me that FIC is definitely the Biblical model for the church. How do you get that from those two verses you may ask. It is easy, but for you to get it is going take a click of the mouse button. You will have to go listen to the sermon

      No one is going to get how I came around to that unless they listen to the sermon, and they may not get that aha! moment even if they do.

      You act as though I addressed this post to Robin Townsend. It is clear it was a little history about myself and my experience. It has zero to do with you or Tony or the Amish people or any other group.
      Again I have asked you to look into something (the sermon link) and you won’t, and ask you to prove me wrong in using Scripture. I think I told you about my personal battle to prove Dr. John MacArthur wrong and found out that I was wrong, all from digging in Scripture hitting commentaries and other sources not just by reading it. And I get the same answer all the time from you. You have got to ask yourself why this subject bothers you so much. Is it a conviction of the Holy Spirit?
      All I do on this blog is post Scriptural Truths, not my opinion (When pertaining to Scripture). Only person that could/should get upset with this is the mentioned JG. 🙂

      Love you dearly Robin.

  5. Great post, Mark! Glad to have you and I hope y’all will keep coming back. The teaching we have been sitting under these last several years has been sanctifying indeed. Can’t wait to read your other thoughts.

    Hey Robin,
    I don’t think we know each other personally but I do know of you and I’ve been praying for you and your children in the loss of your husband. I just wanted to chime in and say that I grew up in a “traditional” mega-church environment and it was difficult to let go of those long held traditions and ways of doing things. Unfortunately, just living out what we believe tends to make others that don’t share similar convictions feel that we are trying to make their choices seem inferior or “less holy”. We’ve actually been asked to leave three churches over the issue of keeping our children with us in worship. I. Could. Write. A. Book.

    I am going to speak for Mark just because I have faced the same question myself many times. He wasn’t trying to be anyone’s Holy Spirit and telling others what they should do. He’s just sharing what the Lord is teaching him. It’s always exciting when the Lord reveals something new through His Word or the foolishness of preaching and we tend to like to shout those things from the rooftops. If this is not something you agree with (and there are many ‘disputable matters’ amongst Christians which need not divide us because we are fellow yokemen for Christ) just toss it away like the chaff. If it’s something that is useful to you, keep it, ponder it and study it out in Scripture to see if it be so.

    Just two quick points about that particular sermon, I would encourage you to listen to it. It’s a good sermon even if you toss out the part about women speaking in the church. As to the speaking in church, he didn’t say (nor did Pastor Liddle preach) that women can never approach the pastor with questions. He was referring to having women in authority over men in the church, women stepping around the authority of their husbands and women in leadership.

    Secondly, I can assure you that family integrated churches, as a general rule, are not cults. And, I can say with authority and conviction that Dominion is certainly not a cult. It’s not the first time we’ve been accused of belonging to a cult… and I’m sure it won’t be the last. 🙂

    At any rate, I hope you and Mark will remain friendly. He’s a great friend to have. 🙂

    Keep posting Mark! Love to hear more about what you’re learning!!


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